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The woundedness of being "negative" about life

by: Gill Smith

Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 03:15 AM PDT


Various exchanges below on this website have prompted me to write this.  It's about the woundedness and pain and bewilderment I feel I've suffered most of my life - not just since 2nd Birth in 2001 - at the hands of people who have a more positive experience of life.

Having a negative experience of life, which I think I've had since I was very young (and not because I had a particularly difficult childhood, because I didn't - I think I was literally just born this way) is a bit of a double-whammy.  Not only is one's view and experience of life extremely difficult, but it is then labelled "negative" by others and you are then subject to a whole range of people telling you there's something wrong with you.  If only you did this or saw things this way; if only this or that happened.  And so on.  You are subjected to endless torment at the hands of "positive" people, including the hurtful accusations that you are somehow enjoying your painful experience of reality.  And of course it's all your fault.

One of the bizarre gifts, for me, of the awakening process was to discover that all along I had been right and others who cajoled me to be different were wrong.  I had been right about me, I mean.  The way I experience life is excrutiating.  After many years of trying all sorts it was a pleasure to enter the Rot - indeed I awoke very swiftly because I'd been rotting for a long time.

So this is just a small plea on behalf of myself and I'm sure others who do find life too much.  Too painful, too heart-breaking, too traumatic, too confusing, too exhausting - the list is endless.  Please honour our/my reality and then perhaps I'll find it easier to accept your more positive take on things.  Be aware that you do me a lof of damage, injury and dishonouring in not accepting my experience. Most of all that of feeling isolated and rejected.  It still seems true that people prefer to hear the "positive" and steer away from the uncomfortable "negative" perhaps. And I apologise sincerely for sometimes not being able to understand how you can find life positive.

Love, Gill
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The woundedness of being "negative" about life | 71 comments
So it is (0.00 / 0)
Dear Gill,

Your articulation of how things are for you I find both painful and refreshing at the same time. Your integrity and fortitude in stating your truth are most attractive. Thank you for  doing that.  

Love

T    

Thanks so much (0.00 / 0)
Thanks Tommy.  Your comments are well appreciated.  

Some of my intentions in writing the stuff I do is to empower and help "liberate" fellow sufferers who feel the same way and yet are inhibited from self-expression because of the taboo about it - and because of unwelcome responses (such as the one below from John M.  I rest my case...).

I'm not asking for pity - just to be "met" on some levels and honoured there.  You have.  Thank you so much again.

Love, Gill

[ Parent ]
Grow Up and get over yourself (0.00 / 0)
Gill,

This is an answer to not only your last post but what I've read from you in the past year. Let me see if I can avoid sounding patronizing.

You imply those of us trying to be helpful to you have and have always had a more positive life experience than you. Are you fucking nuts?

If our experience of life is and always has been more positive than yours, then why in the hell are we here at Mutuality.net? Why would we be looking so hard and so long at all the spiritual alternatives to the point of arriving here if we felt fucking great? If there's one thing all of us coming to Waking Down In Mutuality have in common it's feeling like shit because of our lousy life experiences. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't be here. The way you feel is hardly unique.

The fact is, some of us at long last feel great most of the time, and it isn't because we talked our selves into some delusional, gleeful state. But you don't get that do you? You think we're talking about things way beneath your level of understanding, and somehow concoct bullshit, feel good delusions to fool ourselves into feeling "positive" about life. How can you possibly think we haven't tried that and failed just like you did? Again, if telling ourselves positive nonsense worked why would we be at Mutuality.net? How could you think such kindergarten bullshit is what we're trying to tell you?

You're not the only one to realize your state although it sounds like you think you are. Those of us claiming there is something beyond God-Awfulness say so because we damn well know God-Awfulness to the point of having transcended it. Then there IS something on the other side and it's not God-Awful. That's what we're trying to get across to you.

Instead of seriously considering the good hearted help offered, you prefer defending feeling like shit and read things so you feel slighted,and judged rather than actually test anything said to see if it's true. You'd rather run the "Poor Gill" number than grow from my perspective. Okay. It's your life. Do as you will, but don't insist that I honor your determined stance to stay unhappy.

I don't claim any kind of ultimate realization, but I'm pretty sure that feeling like shit isn't any sort of ultimate realization regardless what any book says. You are ultimately Infinite and Free and being fucking miserable forever and ever Amen isn't part of That. But to discover this requires letting go of self which you show no interest in doing. Again, do as you will and suffer the consequences.

If you want to spend the rest of your life holding onto feeling God-Awful and being a whiney ego, then so be it. But I don't and won't honor it. I'm voting no on your plea for a Gill pity party.

I'd like to be an optimist, but I'm afraid it wouldn't work out.

John Mayberry

Maybe it's you that should grow up! (0.00 / 0)
Well, Joe, your posting is exactly the sort of thing I mean.  Exactly the sort of stuff I've had to put up with for a long, long time.

I'm not saying I haven't found the transcendent - I surely have, and its glorious.  I'm not saying my experiences of life are worse than many - even if they may be, who knows? -  only that, if that is the case, why aren't people writing about them?  Why?  Probably because they're worried they'll get blasted about being self-pitying and whining, so don't bother any more.  Whereas those who "whine" about "positive" things get oh-so-lovely things said to them in response.

I've never had a Gill pity party - sounds nice to me and would be a very welcome change.  No, most people have no idea of the suffering I've gone through and still go through every day.  Including having to listen to your insults.

Yes, in one way I don't listen to people's "well-meaning" attempts at help.  This is because it is not actually help, despite what you say.  I'm not asking for pity or help.  Just wondering whether anyone could relate.  Can't you get that?

If you've truly "woken down" then you'll have embraced the finite as well as transcended your self.  If you find the world acceptable then good for you.  I was just trying to discern if there were any fellow sufferers out there who find life intolerable.  This is not self-pity in the orthodox sense that I think you mean it.  In another sense, we should perhaps all have a certain amount of "pity" or certainly empathy and loving kindness for our selves.

Gill

[ Parent ]
The Book of Job (0.00 / 0)
I'm not a Christian, but my current partner is (to some degree).  Because of this, he suggested I read the Book of Job.  Anyone read this?  It's amazing - and I can relate to Job entirely!  (Well, mostly!).  

Job gets accused endlessly by his friends of "whining on" about his circumstances - yet to read him is wonderful (to me).  One quote to his so-called helpers which seems valid here is:

"I have heard many things like these; miserable comforters are you all!
Will your long-winded speeches never end?
What ails you that you keep on arguing?!"

The point is that Job is so miserable he just speaks his Truth.  He is not necessarily looking for "comfort"

as he knows there is none.

Go read.  I recommend.

Gill

[ Parent ]
Things are coming to a head (0.00 / 0)

For me, there is a thread that began approximately when Gill said in response to a poem of Paresh's:

Sorry, don't want to insult your poetic sensibilities, but this kind of posting is exactly why I find mutuality.net often boring.  Is there no-one out there prepared to be a bit more brutally honest instead of all hearts-and-flowers nicey nicey???!!!

Notice that it begins "don't want to insult your poetic sensibilities" and then proceeds to do exactly that. In a later response to Joe Blowinski, Gill said:

you cannot realise just how patronising your posting is.

...said, of course, in the most patronizing way possible.

Recently, I tried to bring this to Gill's attention in this posting, speaking of the way that one person "thumping" another has different implications online and offline. Gill's response, in part, was:

It is not my intention to "thump" anyone - and I am renowned at work for pouring water on conflict rather that fuelling any fires. But occasionally I do feel the need to "scream".

There are two problems here. One is: no, Gill, you aren't just screaming. Screaming would be okay. You are thumping, as I have demonstrated in the quotes above. And you are indeed fueling fires. As I predicted in my recent post, we're now in the midst of a little flame war. And anyone seen Paresh around here lately? Didn't think so.

The second problem is that you seem to be immune to feedback. Apparently, you'll either hear what you want to hear from others, or conclude that you're not welcome to be yourself. This is an enormously frustrating situation.

To Joe: while I agree with everything you said, and see why you used the tone you did, that sort of language can be contagious. Let's work together to keep this site a safe space, as much as is possible under the circumstances.


[ Parent ]
I agree Michael (0.00 / 0)
Michael,

You've never seen me use this tone in person or on this board before, and I promise not to make a habit of it. I hope to never jump on anyone else ever again, because this should be a place people feel safe to express themselves and discuss what they need to bring out in the open. I'm with you on that point and hope my post above does not contribute to a decline in civility.

However, there are simply times that one must stand up to a bully with force. Rather than the response I received, I hoped for one of those moments like in old movies when one person slaps another and that person says, "Thanks. I needed that."

Instead, all I've seemed to do is give Gill more ammunition for her to use to shore up her world view rather than help her realize her responsibility for her state. Sigh. Maybe I didn't slap hard enough? ;-)

I'd like to be an optimist, but I'm afraid it wouldn't work out.

John Mayberry

[ Parent ]
Owie (0.00 / 0)

Maybe I didn't slap hard enough? ;-)

To some extent, people stop deserving gentle treatment when they are themselves ungentle. But I get concerned about taking it too far.

(I made a different response to this earlier, but I wanted to say it more clearly.)


[ Parent ]
See Nicole's post below (0.00 / 0)
I could feel further victimised, but am trying not to.  ButI do feel extremely thumped myself, especially by John's postings, where he is somehow trying to blame me for his retort.  Hey, your reactions are your reactions - not mine.  I do accept what Michael points out - my angry sarcasm.  Sorry.

But luckily Nicole has come to the rescue.  I think her posting says so much - especially some of the parts about people in pain.  And about people in pain not wanting anyone to necessarily "fix them" (because that sounds patronising) and so on.  I will consider her posting more carefully - and appreciate it deeply.

Her issues about this Forum I think are great - about what we each value more than others and what is and isn't acceptable here and how, not being clear about that, I have upset some people.  

I'm sorry if I've come in like a hurricane...but maybe now, if people wish to, some of these issues can be clarified.

Gill

[ Parent ]
Healing (0.00 / 0)

Thank you for the acknowledgment. I have some hope now that we'll be able to work toward restoring some semblance of safety here. I'll start a thread on the subject of establishing guidelines shortly.


[ Parent ]
Two cents worth (0.00 / 0)
I see my name.  Paresh!  This is red rag to a bull!  Maddened by the wounds already inflicted by clapped out old guys on horses, now I'm faced with this young idiot in the gay fancy dress. I snort and drool as the pain of the pointed sticks in the my shoulders sinks ever deeper.  I lower my huge head.  Perhaps one last lunge of my massive hurting body will deal with this little bastard once and for all. I know I'm lunging to my death.  Do I care? Do I fuck!  My whole life has been this lunge.

Got that off my chest then. I was looking for a way of exiting the space into which Gill's ill-considered reaction to my poem threw me.  I exited the thread precisely because I didn't want be part of a flame war.  It would have been too easy for me.  I can be a sarky little sod.  Taking into account the danger of disinhibition inherent in emailing, it seems to me that the same standards that obtain during a sitting should obtain on this site.

[ Parent ]
Thanks Paresh (0.00 / 0)
Good to see you return. So far I've confined my own feelings about all this to Michael's post: Creating Community Guidelines. You might want to put your suggestion there as well. Much Love...
[ Parent ]
A response to the conflict... (0.00 / 0)
I've never posted much on Mutuality.net, but I think I can contribute something to the conversation because I've been on both sides.

Gill: I have been where you are (or something like it), and was, for many years, as a teenager and beyond. I spent a long time being passively (and sometimes actively) suicidal. And I've spent last two or three years going through one alarming, terrifying health crisis after another, and thinking that any moment, I was going to die horribly--or indeed, was in the process of doing just that. (Several people here or in Waking Down, including Saniel and Linda, know about this and/or have seen me in it, including my beloved Michael. I also had a long conversation with Chris DeLuca about this not too many months ago--about how I resonated with her earlier posts about the extremity she was in, although she had moved beyond it at the time I talked with her.) I am happy to report that, at the moment, things are going much better (and I'm very aware that that could change at any moment). I chalk this up to tenacity--the tenacity of always looking for better, more complete, more permanent ways to undo my suffering, and the tenacity of never giving up. You might say it's my life's quest.

Although I resonate with where you're at, I see many self-reinforcing aspects to your self-expression: "Life is brutal." "Awakening can be brutal."  
"God is brutal." "To ignore brutality is to ignore a huge aspect of life," "the brutality of being," "Just seeing if there's anyone out there willing to support me in my worldview," "people not being "real" enough - there's so much of that in this world of ours, it gets overwhelming," "I was just being me; something that's often not welcome in this world," "the woundedness and pain and bewilderment I've suffered most of my life... at the hands of people who have a more positive experience of life," "I think I was literally just born this way," "you are then subject to a whole range of people telling you there's something wrong with you," "You are subjected to endless torment at the hands of "positive" people," "all along I had been right and others who cajoled me to be different were wrong," "The way I experience life is excrutiating," "[Life is] Too painful, too heart-breaking, too traumatic, too confusing, too exhausting - the list is endless," "Be aware that you do me a lof of damage, injury and dishonouring in not accepting my experience...Most of all that of feeling isolated and rejected," etc.

While I am not particularly criticizing you for those beliefs (although it might seem/feel to you that I am)--have you noticed [and I'm sure you have] that they just come out of nowhere? that we don't consciously choose them?--I am pointing out their self-reinforcing nature. Show me someone with those beliefs and I'll show you someone whose life looks like... well, yours. (Adyashanti has a very interesting audio up on his website called "Seeing Through the Core Story." It points out quite clearly how for many of us, our lives have been the living out of a single [could be more than one, in my opinion, but he says a single] core story. Mine is, "I'm not going to be able to survive." Guess what my life has looked like?)

As I said before, I'm not blaming you (although in the interests of honesty, I do notice some irritation coming up at various points in this discussion). I fully understand that we don't choose most of our negative beliefs, and that superficially adopting "positive" ones doesn't solve anything (and often makes it worse). But we do hold onto our beliefs, and therein lies the rub. What I've found in examining my beliefs very deeply and, in many cases, getting to the bottom of why I'm holding onto a particular negative (= painful) belief, is that I always believe that holding onto it benefits me in some way. Not that I'm a masochist or that I somehow perversely "enjoy" my suffering (and I hate that word "payoff"), but that the mind, in its innocence, thinks that beliefs can actually protect it, or prove something, or bring it love. How shockingly naïve--and how amazing. How could we ever believe that believing something bad will bring us peace, or happiness, or love?

A very interesting question that you might ponder: What are you afraid would happen (or What would it mean) if you weren't unhappy? If you're game, you can apply this to each of the things you're unhappy about--for example: What am I afraid would happen if I weren't afraid of dying [or anything you're afraid of]? What am I afraid would happen if I wasn't depressed about how miserable life is? What would it mean if I weren't frustrated about people not being real on this forum? Please note: There are no "shoulds" in this exercise; it's just a "what if?" kind of scenario. Your answers might reveal the reasons you're holding onto a particular belief. (And notice that pesky answer "Because it's right." If that one comes up, ask "What do I hope to gain by being right?")

I do think the Waking Down ideology of "Suffering is inevitable and inescapable" feeds this sort of dilemma and conflict. On the one hand, it can be very validating for people who are in pain and have never had that validated or normalized before. On the other hand, when people buy into it as "reality," it can create a sort of self-reinforcing, self-fulfilling prophecy: "Suffering is inevitable and inescapable; therefore, I'll never be free of it; therefore I'll be miserable for ever; therefore I'll be in this hell forever; life sucks, the universe sucks, everything sucks, so what's the point of looking for a way out? there is none; I'd better just grit my teeth and suffer," etc. etc. Do you see how this is a self-reinforcing belief, and once you're stuck in it, you're pretty much screwed?

Right now, I see this belief as a story--a very big story. I have seen in my own life that suffering is neither inevitable nor inescapable--that in fact, it almost always boils down to a mistake in perception, interpretation, communication, or all three. I have seen that there are huge, enormous gaps in the apparent "blanket solidity" of suffering, and that every bit of suffering I've ever personally encountered can be undone (I haven't undone it all yet, but I see that it can be undone). That's not to say it isn't very real when we're in it; just that there is hope and a way (or many ways) out. And that hope is accessible to each one of us.

I know that that may sound heretical here on the Waking Down forum, where this belief is practically de rigeur--and considered central to the technology of the core wound and the Second Birth. But I'm willing to venture being a heretic, mostly because the agenda of getting people out of their suffering is way more important to me than any spritual ideology or belief. I realize I may be stepping on some toes by even questioning it--or at the very least, I may get all sorts of reasons and "proofs" why I'm wrong. So be it. As one very famous writer said, "Argue for your limitations, and they're yours." As someone who used to very strenuously argue for my limitations (and still do, sometimes ; ), I know this to be true.

* * * * *
As for the other side, the reactions to Gill's posts--some thoughts for your consideration. Take these for whatever they're worth:

Note #1: People in pain are usually hypersensitive, and thus hyperreactive. (This is not a criticism; I think we can all identify with this, or find evidence of this in our own lives.)

Note #2: People in a great deal of pain often say/do things that (inadvertently) hurt others, mostly because they're in so much pain, they're flailing/thrashing about and can't help but bump into others.

Note #3: People in pain tend to be self-absorbed, and not as aware of the needs or feelings of others as they might otherwise be. This isn't the fault of the person in pain; it's part of the dynamics of pain.

Note #4: People in pain often don't choose their words as carefully as they might if they weren't in pain. They can't; the pain occupies too much of their attention.

Note #5: People who haven't been (or aren't currently) in a certain kind or extremity of pain often don't understand people who are currently in it. [This is actually borne out by brain research (we can't remember how a negative mood feels when we're in a positive one, and vice versa. Sort of a principle of resonance.)]

Note #6: People in pain usually just want to be heard and validated (i.e. soothed), not lectured to. Attempts to point out to them why or how they shouldn't be in pain or what to do about it are usually perceived as lecturing, patronizing, hurtful, insulting, or some combination of these. If you really want someone in pain to hear you (instead of just venting at them), tread very lightly. Be gentle. And be very clear, because in the space of pain, who's responsible for what and who's doing what to whom can get very confusing indeed.

* * * * *
As for the expectations of what's okay and appropriate on this forum, Michael (since he owns it) will be the final arbiter, but here's my two cents, for consideration:

Note #7: Some people place a higher value on "being real" than on social expectations/decorum (don't know what else to call this latter; Michael used the term "social contract." Is it a contract if all parties have not been informed or agreed to it?).

Note #8: Some people place a higher value on social expectations/decorum than on "being real."

Note #9: Both sides feel they are protecting the interest(s) and feelings of themselves and others in doing so.

Note #10: These sides often get into conflict with each other, each misperceiving,  misinterpreting, or misrepresenting the intentions of the other (which is, ultimately, to protect what's good and valuable).

Note #11: We tend to project responsibility for our hurts outward before taking responsibility for them internally (again; this is not a criticism; it's just part of the dynamics of mind. As one teacher I know says, it's how the mind sees itself.).

Note #12: That being said, we can do a lot of (apparent) damage before we discover that our hurt is an inside job.

Some questions to/for all: Is it okay on this forum to show dislike/discomfort/frustration/boredom with another's post, feelings, or self-expression? Are blatant obscenities okay? Is there a difference between criticizing someone's post and attacking their character or personality? What's the best way to handle things if you feel hurt, offended, or irritated by another's post or comments? And, rather than just clamping down on debates/conflicts of this kind, is it possible that there is something much bigger to be gained by allowing them to continue (seems like that's in keeping with the Waking Down commitment to living in mutuality)? (I don't pretend to have all the answers, although I do have some opinions, as is probably obvious. I'm just throwing the questions out there. Seems like it's a good time to consider them directly. Perhaps we might have an open debate on the topic of expectations and what's appropriate for this forum? As evinced by the current debate, it does not appear that opinions on this are either uniform or self-evident.)

* * * * *
Finally, when these sorts of disputes arise, may I suggest The Work of Byron Katie for any and all interested parties (and by "interested parties" I mean both the parties involved in the dispute and the parties interested in pursuing a kind of work that helps to discriminate in situations like this and/or interested in pursuing a peaceful resolution to the conflict)? I've found it extremely helpful in seeing clearly in situations like this where the accusations and hurt feelings are flying thickly, and everyone's claiming someone else is responsible. If any of you individually is game, you might take each of the statements you found to be hurtful/offensive and put it through her four questions:

1 Is it true?
2 Can I absolutely know that it's true?
3 How do I react when I think/believe that thought?
4 Who would I be without that thought?
Turn the thought around to its opposite. Could that be as true or truer?

With love and whatever else,
Nicole

A response to the conflict (0.00 / 0)
Dear Nicole

Thank you so much for this long, detailed and very intelligent posting.  I intend to read it again in detail, but for now I just wanted to send heartfelt thanks for it.

I especially like the issues you raise about the different things we each value - you've probably guessed I value "being real" over social etiquette!

And I think you raise some very important issues for this Forum to (hopefully) discuss.  

Gill  

[ Parent ]
Glad it was helpful... (0.00 / 0)

Hey, Gill--I think you're really brave for having posted this stuff, even if it is a little on the "whiny" side ; ) (and trust me, I've been there, too ; ). I think the "whininess" occurs when the mind can't see its way out, and thus tends to "complain" about the same thing over and over again, in the hopes that things will be different this time, or that it will see something that it hasn't seen before. It's not masochism or self-indulgence or "enjoying" the pain (who the heck really enjoys real pain??)--it's actually the mind looking for a way out. Kind of like the tongue that constantly nurses a sore tooth. If you look deep enough, there's intelligence in all of our seemingly crazy responses.

 

I've come at some of my insights about pain from hard experience: 1) after having been in a lot of it, for very long periods of time; 2) having, at times, not been in pain for some period of time, and having that as contrast (I'll bet, Gill, if you looked, you could find those periods, too : ); and 3) having some kind individual point out, several years ago, that when we're in pain, we tend to be terribly self-absorbed. It was a shock at the time, because I hate to think of myself as self-absorbed, but I realized very quickly that it was true; I couldn't see others' needs because my pain was just too large and overwhelming in my own eyes and being. I also saw that it was completely innocent, and part of the dynamics of pain itself, not me being "selfish" or "self-indulgent" (as is often levelled at people in pain). Also, having been in so much pain and hypersensitive for so long, I've developed an acute interest in approaches that minimize that pain for myself and others. Somewhere along the line, I concluded that an excruciating gentleness was required for myself to heal; my own internal system was so harsh and self-rejecting/self-attacking, I literally was unable to soothe myself, and nearly any input other than that gentleness and total acceptance was interpreted by my nervous system as more attack (I still get this way sometimes). So per Chris's question as to what purpose will validation serve? (a very interesting question, I thought, even though I don't necessarily agree with its assumptions) I say: it is this--the ability to soothe oneself. It's impossible to heal if we're constantly rubbing salt in a wound--which, with psychic ones, includes *feeling* like salt is getting rubbed in the wound. And it's impossible to heal if we're still attacking ourselves. So validation (which is the same thing as greenlighting, in my opinion--the "magic" that the whole Waking Down methodology rests upon) is the first step toward soothing, which is the first step towards healing.

 

Anyhoo, I'm glad these things were helpful to you, Gill. I hate to see anyone in pain, and I tend to empathize/sympathize with those who are in the most pain (maybe sometimes a bit to the exclusion of the others ; ). I also come in soundly on the side of "being real" vs. social etiquette, much to the occasional chagrin and embarrassment of several sweeties over the years. ; ) I do feel a bit guilty about getting caught up the feeding frenzy against you, but I feel like my response was pretty even-handed and appropriately chastised and supported both sides. : )

 

So anyhow, Gill, you sound a bit calmer in your last few replies. : ) Maybe the supportive responses you received will give you the kind of fresh air you need to take a deep breath and start looking for the chinks that you may have missed in the wall of pain. And may I once again recommend The Work of Byron Katie, and, in particular, her nine-day School For The Work (see http://www.thework.com)? (Another favorite resource of mine is the Sedona Method, http://www.sedona.com or http://www.sedonamethod.com.) I have a feeling that you might develop a very special relationship with it. : ) (It was the first light at the end of the tunnel for me.) Katie is absolutely amazing, and very, very loving. Feel free to e-mail or message me offline (can we do that here?) if you'd like to walk through it with a real live person.

 

: ) Nicole


[ Parent ]
Helpful (0.00 / 0)
Thanks again Nicole.

Gill

[ Parent ]
beautiful (0.00 / 0)
Hi Nicole, I just wanted to say that this is a really thoughtful and eloquent piece on these issues. I appreciate you creating such a grounding frame for the discussion. Take care. Love, Chris
[ Parent ]
p.s.... (0.00 / 0)
p.s. Nicole-- a HUGE Thank You!!! Love, Chris
[ Parent ]
Glad to help... (0.00 / 0)

Hey, guys--both of you (Gill and Chris)--you are most welcome. This is one of the things I love most in life. Glad I could be of service. 

 

Love,

Nicole


[ Parent ]
My appreciation as well (0.00 / 0)
Nicole,

I just want to add my thanks for your post and especially for the clear way that you articulated some of the issues for both "sides" of this thread.

Blessings,
Joy

[ Parent ]
Thanks... (0.00 / 0)

Hey; thanks, Joy. By the way, did you know we're both in Chicago? Perhaps we should try getting together? (I think we tried connecting once, right after I joined WDM, but never followed up...)

: )  Nicole 


[ Parent ]
Getting together in Chicago (0.00 / 0)
Nicole,

I had forgotten about that - or didn't connect it with "you".  I did know, since June, that you were in Chicago, because Michael mentioned it to me at the Transfig. Retreat.  I definitely think we should get together very soon.  However, I am about to leave (Thursday) for a 10-day vacation.  If you can email me off-list, then we can arrange a time and place after Sept. 20.

Susan "Joy" Schleef
JoyFlower@core.com

[ Parent ]
how to respond (0.00 / 0)

Gill,

I am in a complete quandary about how to respond to you. You feel "isolated and rejected" as a result of the exchange we had? Some could look at it and suggest that you rejected me. It all depends on point of view.

Most of the people who have been through a hellish Rot can identify with your experience. As JoeB said, that is most of the people in Waking Down. 

I'm pretty sure people on mutuality.net are writing about the positive because it is so unique to be experiencing anything positive in this world of suffering. And awakening.

Waking Down is not "the rest of the world" who covers up over what's real, and the suffering of life. You responding to us as though we are "them" is called projection.

We are all here because we have wanted freedom from suffering. Some of us are actually beginning to achieve it.

It is an entirely natural human impulse when someone is suffering and you think you've been there and can point the direction through and beyond it, to do that. Most of us, when we bitch about the suffering, it's because we want it to end.

When I met you a year ago, I was crying out that I was suffering and I wanted it to end. I got the help I needed and now I am using it to move through and beyond suffering.

You don't want help. You want acknowledgement. 

Why?

What will that do for you?

Or for your suffering?

Do you really believe it is going to make it any easier for you to accept other people's positive expressions here?

I don't think it will, Gill.

If you re-read our last exchange, I never rejected your suffering. I acknowledged and accepted it from beginning to end. I have lived it. I know it from direct, personal experience. But I also began to point you through it. That doesn't make me a brutal beast who doesn't acknowledge you or the Reality of life. I was offering loving support that you didn't want. But instead of taking responsiblity for the fact that you don't want my help, you are using the prior exchange to further your "case" for being "beaten up" for telling your truth. I did no such thing.

I think you want to be martyred, not seen.

I'm with JoeB on this one. I think you need to grow up.

Chris


How to respond (0.00 / 0)
Why do you feel the need to respond?  I'm not asking for your help - and, please hear this "gently", I don't think, Chris, you are the one you can help me here.  It is not your responsibility to help or save me.

What has helped me enormously is Nicole's posting.  She is saying things I can hear.

PLEASE understand that this is not a criticism of you.  It's just that some of us can help some of us some of the time but definitely not all of the time.

Gill

[ Parent ]
okay.... (0.00 / 0)

I felt the need to respond because you seemed to be taking my loving expression of compassion and concern and turning it into you being knocked down for having a negative point of view. That is the whole theme of what you wrote in your first post on this thread, isn't it?

I didn't experience it as a criticism of me. I experienced it as a criticism of the actions I took in response to you. You didn't think they were helpful. BIG DEAL. So I'm not helpful. This is not important to me in the scheme of things.

What is important to me is how my compassionate attempt to hear you and hold you and help you was then interpreted. It came out as though I had somehow abused you. You didn't name names but the whole last thread was mainly between you and I, with a little of Michael and a little of John thrown in for good measure. That is why I felt the need to respond. It's one thing when I am actually being abusive to be called on it. It's another thing entirely to be accused of it when no such thing has happened.

Chris


[ Parent ]
Okay (0.00 / 0)
Chris, I'm sorry - I just haven't been able to "hear" a single thing you've said almost right from the beginning of this or the "Brutal Truth" thread.  Why this is, I don't know, I really don't know.  I guess it goes back to what Nicole said about our own self-absorption when in various kinds of pain.  Yes, it's a shock to see it in oneself.  I've had a lot of shocks this past week or so having to look at a lot of stuff about myself I really don't like (and even hate).  I never used to think of myself as someone who suffered from self-hatred, but that is not true, as I'm discovering.

So apologies once again and I hope you can understand and forgive me.

Love, Gill

[ Parent ]
getting back to your point... (0.00 / 0)
Getting back to your point, Gill. I get that I have nothing to offer you. I actually have no need for you to respond to this last thing I've said-- this self-defensiveness. At this point, I am very happy to leave the discussion. I do realize this isn't about me. Take care. I'm glad that Nicole has pointed you a way through that you can actually hear. Chris
[ Parent ]
Mutuality beyond positivity or negativity (0.00 / 0)
Gill,

First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to share what you describe as "negativity" in the face of all the other posts here which you describe as "positive".  I really hear how strong and deep and painful your experience of "negativity" is and I appreciate getting to know a little bit more of you in that process.

Secondly, I have to admit that I have not read all the comments to your latest post as they were pretty long and intensely thoughtful -- except for the ones that seemed to be more driven by gut emotional reactions without being very thoughtful. But that is not really what I wanted to respond to.

The thing that bewildered me about your post was where were all these "positive" exchanges on Mutuality.net that you were refering to.  I was really puzzled by that, because I had read/listened to most of the recent ones and I didn't experience any of them as particularly "positive".

Then I went back and read your July 30 post and many of the more recent comments and I saw your comment about how you experienced my food post.  I certainly didn't think of that as a "positive" essay, but rather an observation of some new deeper learning or awareness -- a deeper understanding of the nature of food and how it interacts with my body/mind.  To me, there is not really anything positive about that -- it just is.

So I find it very puzzling, not only that you experienced what I wrote as "positive", but that you also feel like you were suffering at my hands because of what I wrote.

You seem to be saying (in the exchanges subsequent to your July 30 post) that you attribute your negativity to your continual physical and emotional pain.  That might be how YOU respond to pain, but my own experience is different.

I wrote some posts about this over a year ago, but I'll just summarize here by saying that I live with a great deal of physical pain every day -- pain that has been around in some form for maybe 20 years, but has grown worse over the past 7 or 8 years.  Many days, I spend an hour or so working kinks and misalignments out of my lower back before I can even get out of bed.  Once I do get up, my feet are often so painful that I can only walk very slowly and carefully.  That foot pain gets worse when I have to put shoes on and walk outside on concrete sidewalks and concrete floors at work.  Going down the stairs from my apartment to leave for work - that's when the pain in my knee and hip joints flares up.

But that is only one of many ways I experience my life.  In addition, to intense pain, sometimes nearly immobilizing pain, I also experience moments of new learning and deepening awareness.  I enjoy moments of passionate involvement in my work and in new areas of study in my personal life (including spiritual studies).  

Since my 2nd birth, I've also had many moments of flatness and emptiness -- which helped me definitely relate to some of what you describe in your writings.  I was quite shocked to discover that, in my words, my 2nd birth experience doesn't feel like anything spiritual at all -- it just feels like reality -- and there is a certain emptiness to that in my experience.  

And in the midst of that flat emptiness, in the midst of that 'just is-ness', I still have to 'do my life'.  I still have to get out of bed in the morning, even if my lower back hurts.  I still have to make choices about whether I want to eat something healthy or whether I want to have ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  (Believe me, there are days when I still choose the latter.)  I still have to figure out how to live my life in a way that makes a difference, even when I often feel like nothing really makes any difference!  I stil have to struggle to clean up the clutter in my apartment and struggle against my tendencies toward procrastination.

Clearly you and I have different responses to the painful and "negative" experiences in our respective lives.  Whether that's because we are innately different or because we make different choices (on some level), I don't really know and don't really care.  

What I do know is that, for myself, that is what mutuality is really about:  being present to someone else's version of reality, or their experience of reality that they are sharing with me.  To me mutuality is about hearing and being present to someone's experience, witnessing it without trying to fix them or change them, and without denying their reality, all the while still staying present to my own experience of reality even when it may be very different than theirs.

If I may take that a step further, this is largely my experience of mutuality with my own life.  I don't really think of most things that happen in my life anymore as "positive" or "negative" -- they just are.  I often still have strong emotional reactions to things, and I have strong preferences for some things and desire to avoid other things.  But when I have to experience those things I would rather avoid, I take it as part of life.  I don't LIKE it, but I show up for those part of life just as I do for the parts I like.

But again, that may just be the way I'm wired -- or more accurately, the way I've become rewired.  Your mileage may vary (as they used to say on one of my favorite newsgroups).

Joy

 

Thanks (0.00 / 0)
Hi Joy (or is it Susan?)

Thanks so much for this posting - it is "good" to have such a real description of your day-to-day problems.  This is the sort of thing I think I and others need to hear.

Gill

[ Parent ]
Hmmm (0.00 / 0)
I am a bit puzzled by the directon this chain has taken.

Gill's post on August 29 did not sound inflamatory to me.

I hesitate to say anything, because I'm probably stepping in to something I don't understand, but I will say anyway that I can relate to your viewpoint and pain, Gill.  And to a dislike of unsolicited advice.  All through my childhood and youth, family members and complete strangers said to me "smile, it can't be that bad."

How can anyone presume to know how or why you occupy the viewpoint and life that you do, or that any of us does?  If it is true, as I like to tell myself, that we are self-evolving beings, each of us is, at any given moment, in the only "place" we can be at that moment.  It will change if and when it does.

From my own experience, I concur with many things Nicole said, about the inner life consuming much of one's attention when there is pain.

I was not aware of Waking Down saying that suffering is inevitable and inescapable.  I have found Waking Down to be compatible with the adage "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

There is a phrase in Waking Down about "grasping the means of one's own awakening", which does speak to making effort, to using and directing one's attention, to working with teachers, or doing whatever else helps a person keep moving through their own evolutionary stages.  But I don't see it as my place to tell you, Gill, what you should do, nor to assume that you are not evolving, just because you continue to experience the viewpoint and circumstances that you do.

Life is a mystery.  Each of us is a mystery.

Blessings,
Sylvia


[ Parent ]
I agree... (0.00 / 0)
Hey, thanks, Sylvia--that was my initial response to Gill's posts also. : )  However, I can see how others arrived at their interpretations and reactions as well--particularly Michael, because I know he's strongly vested in performance and seeing/protecting each individual contribution as a sacred thing.

I'm also glad to hear your take on the Waking Down maxim; that's what I originally believed it to be, but I've had others strenuously argue me down in favor of the other, more pessimistic, interpretation. Let's revive this one; I like it much better!

: )  Nicole

[ Parent ]
hmmm (0.00 / 0)
Sylvia, I think maybe I can help to some degree. You say you do not understand what you are seeing. So let me ask you a rather direct question. When you refer to 'this chain' in, "I am a bit puzzled by the directon this chain has taken.

Gill's post on August 29 did not sound inflamatory to me." are you referring to other posts made in this thread? I would venture to guess Yes. Then, we must presume that you are puzzled by what other people said in this thread, even though you do not name them. Nicole certainly presumed that when she responded to you.

So you are confused by some of our responses even though you do not name us. This is one of the problems with social etiquette. We politely say things about others without naming them so that we are not directly confrontational. But this also leaves us off the hook from actually taking full responsibility for what we are saying.

You noted the date of Gill's first post in this thread, which was August 29. The last thread that Gill started called "The Brutal Truth", which involved mainly me, John, and Michael in addition to Gill, substantively ended on August 28. She began it by sharing "The Brutal Truth" of the stark naked pain of this world that we wake up to. We get to live it all our lives and then we "awaken," and lo and behold, it is even worse than we thought. 

All three of us, myself, John, and Michael, put some pretty heavy duty effort into engaging Gill over this very intense material. I kind of made light of their contributions in another post on this thread, but every single one of the posts we made were extremely intense. I felt like I put my guts into each one of those posts, and I have no doubt that so did Michael and John. As you seem to have put a great deal of yourself into your effort here. I can't know that for sure, but I'm human, you're human, we try to empathize and sense one another.

Gill went from her last substantive post there, saying essentially thanks for the apology but you're still not getting me, to writing her first post here the next day. Just as we must presume from your post that you are referencing others in this thread, those of us who put our guts into the other thread presumed that she was (partially) referring to us when she writes "Various exchanges below on this website have prompted me to write this." and then "Please honour our/my reality and then perhaps I'll find it easier to accept your more positive take on things. Be aware that you do me a lof of damage, injury and dishonouring in not accepting my experience. Most of all that of feeling isolated and rejected."

Perhaps in your rather non-confrontational way you are gently suggesting that we might have been projecting in our responses here? I was involved in the prior discussion. Regardless of whether Gill is directly saying that I injured and dishonored her, or she just summarily dismissed what I did share with her in the prior thread as absolute crap not worthy of any impact on her at all, the first post here is dismissive of me, John, and Michael and our efforts in the last thread. And potentially suggests that we might have even been abusive by the responses we did share.

I respect and appreciate that you experience us all as a mystery. But the only way to bridge the gap of our separateness is to project. All people MUST do it. It is the only way across this gap of separateness. I must make some presumptions about you and you about me in order for us to relate in any way. If you examine that inside yourself and find that to be true, I would like to ask you to hold it in mind if you choose to point out where I might be projecting.

Keeping that in mind, although you may not feel like you have an inclination towards understanding people's developmental journey as they evolve, Saniel did or we would not have anything to discuss here. There would be no second birth, no shakedown, nothing to talk about because we'd have no experiences in common. No one would be able to determine who has had a second birth and who has not.

My graduate school education was in adult development. I have some professional expertise in it and I am just naturally inclined that way. I understand that you would not go there and I fully respect you for it. But I do hope that when you say "But I don't see it as my place to tell you, Gill, what you should do, nor to assume that you are not evolving, just because you continue to experience the viewpoint and circumstances that you do." that this somehow means I or John or anyone else "shouldn't be" doing it either. I don't need you to respect me for it. And I'm not asking for your approval. I guess I'm just not appreciating the indirect "judgement." Some people do claim that level of authority for themselves. Gill is a grown woman and she dismissed what I had to say, as she is welcome to do. And although you would not go there, I'm not sure what the point is of judging someone else because they would. Just another point for your consideration.

Thanks,

Chris


[ Parent ]
Hmm (0.00 / 0)
Chris, sorry, but one reason I can't "hear" you again in this thread is that you do seem to go endlessly on about stuff and I really just don't know what you're talking about half the time and my brain just refuses to engage with it.

Some feedback for you: I've noticed often in the past year that you have a habit of taking a comment from someone and then use it as a vehicle to just talk about yourself, rather than hear them and/or just leave them alone.

Gill


[ Parent ]
thanks (0.00 / 0)
Thanks, Gill. That's very helpful. Chris
[ Parent ]
Just to clarify... (0.00 / 0)

Hey, just to clarify--I actually didn't look at the date of the post Sylvia mentioned (which would be the one at the top of this page). I was actually referring to Gill's initial reaction to Paresh's poem (I can't find it now, but if you've been following this and earlier threads, you know the one). I didn't take that as criticizing his poem per se (although she later said she was)--it was a perfectly good poem, and lovely in its own right; I just took it as her sort of throwing up her hands and expressing her frustration at some of the more "abstract" expressions on the forum. Not that they're wrong or bad; they're just not what she personally needed/wanted at the time. I suppose I "got" what she was trying to say because I share that frustration--and a preference for the more raw, direct, and often messy expressions of personal experience. The present discussion, although difficult, is much more to my liking (you might all think that perverse, but nevertheless).

 

That being said, I would never begrudge Paresh or Michael or any of the other poets on the forum their day. If I come across a post that's not what I'm wanting or not what's up for me, I just quietly skip over it (as I'm sure many of you do, too). I don't have the time or the inclination to read everything--or to comment on it. That's also not saying I don't appreciate poetic or conceptual interludes at times; I do. It's just saying that the stuff that feeds my soul these days is the "juicier," messier personal stuff.

 

(Hope this doesn't spark another flame war... It was just to clear up Chris's misperception of what I was reacting to/agreeing with--which I wasn't clear about in the first place.) 

 

: )   Nicole


[ Parent ]
no, no more war (0.00 / 0)
No, Nicole, you are not firing up another flame war by clarifying yourself. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for clearing it up for me. Chris
[ Parent ]
No problem... (0.00 / 0)

Not a problem, Chris. One of my pet quirks is that I like to be understood precisely and completely. So I often over-explain...

: )  Nicole

P.S. See my latest comments, below. :)


[ Parent ]
Just to clarify (0.00 / 0)
Again I find myself completely agreeing with Nicole here.  I too prefer the more raw, direct and "messy" approach.

Is there not a way we could have BOTH on this Forum?  I think if those of us who prefer this have an opportunity to communicate in this way, we can easily "ignore" the posts that don't resonate with us.  And vice versa.  Those who don't want to engage in this type of exchange can go to the "safer" parts.

Gill

[ Parent ]
hmmm, indeed (0.00 / 0)

Chris: I really appreciated Sylvia's post, and am a little confused by the thrust of yours. One thing I wanted to clarify: while you and John have (for better or worse) engaged Gill's postings on their substance, I've only been attempting to act as referee, focused on particular instances of breaking (what I perceive to be) the rules. While I certainly have my own pain, Gill's descriptions of her experience don't resonate with my own, so I've tried to leave the substantial interactions for others. At least now, I have some better idea of what was going on for you in those past threads. But I wouldn't characterize my own participation in the way you have here.


[ Parent ]
sorry (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, Michael. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll be more careful in the future. Chris
[ Parent ]
also... (0.00 / 0)

I'm not exactly sure what the confusion is around the thrust of my response. But that's okay.

As thoughtful as Sylvia's post was, I was also just trying to point out that (1) projection is a necessary aspect of being human, no matter how much we like to think we are staying in the mystery, and (2) direct discussion around ideas is a little challenging when behavior is judged without naming names. I thought my point around judging someone for exercising authority around an issue was particularly poignant, but perhaps that got lost in my noise.

I am happy to accept that Sylvia's voice is a lot more helpful than my own in this discussion. I was not trying to be helpful in this discussion. I tried being helpful in the last dscussion and felt blasted in this one for it. In this one, I've only been getting defensive. I am aware that is not helpful to any of you.

Christine


[ Parent ]
I don't mean to come across too harshly (0.00 / 0)

Christine, I don't think I was trying to say that you're not helpful. (Although maybe I'm getting cranky in the midst of all of this without being entirely aware of it.) I just thought that Sylvia, in the sections of her comment that you were replying to, was referring to Gill's concerns in the main posting, rather than something having to do with you. Even there, I admit I may be mistaken.


[ Parent ]
no, just my sloppiness (0.00 / 0)

No, Michael, I didn't feel at all like you were suggesting I was being unhelpful. I think I was responding more to Gill's rally behind Sylvia's post. Sorry, I was being sloppy in packing my responses in to both of you at once without saying so. Chris


[ Parent ]
Chris--you *are* welcome here... : ) (0.00 / 0)

Chris--breathe, sweetheart. : )  In my mind and heart, you are truly welcome here--crankiness, depression, helpfulness, not-helpfulness, whatever. However you show up. It's all good. I think the journey you're on is astounding, and we would all be lesser to have not watched you go through it in the last year or so.

To me, you and Gill are both role models--of bravery, honesty, and tenacity. You both have had the courage to expose the ugly underbellies of what you've been going through and let the chips fall where they may. You've stuck it out through the tornado. If people cough and vomit, that's their problem--it reveals the state of *their* stomachs, not *your* souls. :) 

If there's any truth to the Waking Down maxim that our wounded parts are the leading (bleeding? ;) edge of what's possible (and I believe there is), then you two are a couple of the unsung heroes and trailblazers on this forum. It is said that the most wounded make the best healers, because they can empathize and understand those in the greatest distress--people that others might turn away from. As you both heal yourselves, as messy as that might be, you will in turn learn to give that same insight and loving attention to others.

 

Much love,

Nicole

P.S. Has anyone else noticed that what Gill is going through very closely resembles what Christine was/has been going through for the last year-and-however-long, and that she's been met with approximately the same response(s)? I think that's no accident, and bears some serious consideration on all of our parts. Is this how we hold our most wounded??


[ Parent ]
thank you (0.00 / 0)

Thanks, Nicole, for both your recent posts to me. It is true that I am feeling very hurt, misunderstood, and yes, even unwelcome. I really don't see it as anyone's responsibility here to make that different for me, though. For example, if the reason I feel these ways is largely because I am projecting onto others, what can you all do about that? That is something I have to engage myself around until it shifts. Or, if the reason I am feeling these ways is because I am too hurtful to others for their comfort level while I'm flailing around in my own pain, then too it seems it is up to me to work that through. Or if it's because I use a communication style in which I use myself as an example in order to get a point across and so I sound like a narcissistic idiot, again, it seems like it's up to me to work on that. That's how I am seeing things recently. Not very Waking-Down-like, but as you are pointing out, I have been essentially rejected by Waking Down. So I am finding I have to find other ways to heal. Like sucking it up....

I think the model of healing Waking Down uses works for most people. For someone like myself who is on the outer edge of the norm in terms of sensitivity and woundedness, but especially with the higher tendency to act out that woundedness (and I am clear that's really the only thing that makes me different in my relationship with WDM), I think the model may only serve to feed the internal "drama" cycle. What seems to be needed is more of a balance of fathering and mothering-- in other words, to foster taking internal responsibility in balance with the nurturance. I may be wrong about this, but that's my take on it recently. If John has anything to offer on this, I would be interested in his thoughts.

And isn't that exactly what you were offering to Gill? Really, I thought it was quite brilliant the way you laid out what you did. And if I'm mischaracterizing, I am sorry.

What I've been describing thus far (in the first paragraph) has been more of the "fathering" side of things. Now the one thing I can't do for myself is give myself "other" love. Either others love you or they don't. I am sensing inside myself that that is a basic human need of the ego. 

So I also want to say that it is very comforting for you to tell me that you feel I am welcome here. I am feeling seen and acknowledged by you in a powerful way with all you have written above. I deeply appreciate you for that, thank you. And I appreciate Michael, as well, for making sure I feel welcome here, as well. I am not at all suggesting others have not been welcoming. I am simply acknowledging the special effort here. Thank you.

Love,

Chris


[ Parent ]
Oops, catching another "story" (0.00 / 0)

...Like who is "WDM" and how have it/we/they rejected me? Really, I have been accepted and rejected by many individuals, and the same individuals at different times. As we all have. There isn't some big, bad entity called "WDM" that has done anything "to" me.

The same thing with the "Waking Down learning model", although there is something to that, it certainly isn't as black and white as I might make it seem.

Really, I can't just shut up. It sucks!

Chris


[ Parent ]
You asked, so here goes (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

I love what you said here and think you are spot on.

Much of the emphasis on what WDM seems to be about revolves around our feminine sides. Or at least, that's how I see it. You know, getting in touch with how we feel about nearly anything and everything. I know in my own case,  any contact I have beyond this plane takes place in my feeling being which I associate with the feminine. Feeling feels feminine to me whether those feelings are above or in the body. Feel free to correct me. Really.

However, this is a double edge sword because deep feeling also opens up deep crappy feeling as well. But, opening up our feeling beings still seems to be a good place to start, because that's the part of ourselves that we're most likely to lop off to avoid feeling crappy. Still, regaining our feminine sides opens us up to Feeling all that we are and hold. It's glorious. And awful.

But like most things, too much of one thing leaves us unbalanced and out of control. If I understand the point you're making, Chris, it's wondering about the self-mastery that becomes possible when we embrace our masculine side equally.

Embracing our masculine side within the context of 2nd Birth makes self mastery truly possible. It's a form of taking charge of self, not by sublimating the feminine, but joining the intuitive wisdom at the base of femininity with the will to chose one's own course and no longer be subject to the winds of culture or karma. For me, it's the exercise of will as a Free individual with all poles integrated allowing me to moment by moment chose where I will be on my many continuums. I can honestly say that at least 95% of the time, I choose how I feel and react in any circumstance. I feel that conscious and powerful. That's what I think the nurturance of my feminine side along with taking internal responsibility with my masculine side does for me. It becomes a balance where life has a hard time throwing me off my game, because I'm in charge of me rather than the other way around. Not because I'm insensitive, but because I'm hypersensitive yet free to choose where I'll appear on my continuums. With my masculine side integrated, I get to choose. These days, I choose the center where I feel the deepest. Unless I don't. ;-)

I'd like to be an optimist, but I'm afraid it wouldn't work out.

John Mayberry

[ Parent ]
Feminine and Masculine (0.00 / 0)
John, thank you for your insightful comments.  Reading them has made me think a lot about some of what I learned from my work with David Deida a number of years back.  I remember his describing how the Masculine can plant a staff around which the Feminine is free to dance with emotional abandon, knowing that she will be able to find her way back and that he will, if needed, help to reign her in when she gets out of control.  Deida teaches this in terms of couple relationships, but I can see how the same concepts apply to internal masculine and feminine.

It is still early in my 2nd birth for me to see how this will unfold, but so far I think I am seeing some difference in the way I am more able to bring my own masculine forth when needed.  I seem to have a new-found force that helps me, at times, to cut through my procrastination or to cut through my wallowing in resistance or tiredness or some other emotional blackhole -- and to just tell myself to get up and "do it - now"!
But this is far from happening all the time, so I know there is more integration yet to come for me.

One thing I would say is very different for me than the way you described.  You said you usually can choose how you feel.  I would say that I often still have strong waves of feeling arise,  but they pass through me quickly and then they're gone.  I think this is actually more true since my 2nd birth because I seem to be suppressing my emotional waves less than I used to.  And I believe that, when allowed to move, the energy of the emotion shifts pretty fast.  And once the emotion has passed, then I feel more clear to make a decision about anything I might need to do about the situation that triggered the emotion.

Maybe that's a more feminine thing, but for me it certainly seems to be a sign of growth.  I would say that, for me as a woman at least, "growing up" means that I let my feminine emotions flow freely and then let my masculine step in to help in the decision making and the action taking.  (and also to reign in the emotions if they get out of control, but that happens so rarely for me)

 

[ Parent ]
Not rescuing... (0.00 / 0)

I don't see it as my (or anyone's responsibility) to change you, either, Christine--that's just how kindness works in me. It's like when you see a child crying, you give them a hug. You don't just stand there, or, for heavens' sake (as one horrific Zen story I know of describes) bow to them. It's not rescuing; it's just simple, ordinary kindness. I made a decision a long time ago that I wasn't going to reject those natural upwellings of human kindness in me--even if others did (although I certainly try to honor people's preference in this matter and not offer hugs when they're unwanted, etc. : ). I know some spiritual ideologies that would consider this "rescuing," but I don't really care. For me, it's unkind to *me* (not to mention to others) not to be kind to others--and not to offer comfort when I see someone hurting. Or, as Byron Katie puts it, I like me best when I'm being that way. So if you prefer, you could just as easily say that my motives were selfish when I comforted you. : )  (And yes, I recognize that all I know of you is my own projection. So if you really wanted to take that to the ultimate extent, you could say it's really just me comforting me. ; )

; )  Nicole 


[ Parent ]
appreciation (0.00 / 0)
Well, I do appreciate your kindness, Nicole. Thank you for "working it" in my direction. ;) Warmly, Chris
[ Parent ]
;) (0.00 / 0)
;)
[ Parent ]
yes, thank you (0.00 / 0)

Yes, I did ask, thank you. Yes, I agree that the interior experience of the feminine is the feeling self. And since I am asking about self-mastery, it is appropriate to direct your reply towards the inward experience/expression of the masculine and femine rather than the focus I was speaking of, which was more the external expression through the teaching model.

This is very clearly stated: "For me, it's the exercise of will as a Free individual with all poles integrated allowing me to moment by moment chose where I will be on my many continuums." I sense that, for me, I am still integrating the poles. That I keep getting tossed out of a place where I do have that capacity for choice because there is some aspect of this negative side of the pole that I am not yet fully integrating.

Also, I am having difficulty with asserting myself and then trying to pull it back after I'm already "out there", even when the assertion isn't negative or hurtful. So I am having some difficulty with owning my masculine capacity for exercising the will and making an impact by doing so. 

Thank you for sharing with me what it is like for you, and how you experience this balance of the masculine and feminine as an interior experience. If you would like to point out to me where you see my places for growth in the context of this "model", I would appreciate the feedback. 

I genuinely believe that full awakening post-second birth is impossible without this integration of the feminine feeling self with the masculine responsibility. This integration is what leads to full individuation, which allows for the simultaneous full dropping away of ego. I've experienced this hours, weeks, months at a time but I am not resting there yet as my majority experience. When I am not there, I oscillate into this-- the most broken aspect of myself. I genuinely need to "grow up," too. Which is partially why I am asking you for the feedback if you'd like to offer it. 


[ Parent ]
yes, thank you, John (0.00 / 0)
This last response was to you, John. I'm sorry for not naming you. Love, Chris
[ Parent ]
More mirror mirror (0.00 / 0)
Thanks again Nicole (are you getting sick of being thanked yet???!!!) but, yes, I  have noticed that what I'm going through resembles what Chris was/has been going through for however long.  That's how I "met" Chris - on this Forum in January when I tried to come to her rescue, feeling she was being wrongly victimised by other WDM people.

Thank you too for seeing the "unsung heroines" in both Chris and myself.  The "ugly underbelly" of every self is, I thought, part of the shakedown.  Hence my frustration if people don't own up to it - or perhaps they have yet to see it in themselves.

Don't know you, but love you for your invaluable contributions here.  And, to mix it up, hi Chris, love you too.

Gill

[ Parent ]
hi.... (0.00 / 0)

Hi Gill,

Sorry I haven't replied to your posts directed to me lately. Just not exactly sure what to say, especially if my writing style isn't readable for you.

Just a note to let you know that although I am still "smarting" from the recent exchange, I'll get over it. I do realize you've apologized and so I am not so sure I need anything else from you in order to move forward.

I'm also not so sure I will be "going in deep" with you again anytime soon,  but I gather that wasn't something you were getting much value from anyway.

So, just wanting you to know that I'm still here and I (still) love you, too.

Chris


[ Parent ]
Hi again, Gill (0.00 / 0)

Hi again, Gill,

Just letting you know that I've done my work and I feel healed around what happened here. I'm sorry it's taken me awhile. I know you weren't criticizing me, and that you meant me no harm. I was going to say I totally forgive you, but really, I'm not so sure you did anything that required forgiving. But you did apologize in case you had, so I will just say if there was any forgiving I needed to do on my side, it's done. What I really needed to do was step out of my trigger and see things clearly, which I've done, and I do. :-)

Hope everything is okay with you. 

Love,

Chris


[ Parent ]
Hurray for Sylvia! (0.00 / 0)
Hurray Sylvia!  Thank you so much for this posting - made me feel a little saner in the midst of the "feeding frenzy" against me.

Your posting just goes to prove that we all have a different take on things and I'm glad you didn't find my posting inflammatory.  Nor was my "Brutal Truth" one, which was mostly a quote from the Spiritual Teacher Bernadette Roberts.

Having said that, I've learned a lot from people's responses - but it's so nice to hear a kind voice in you.

Blessings,

Gill

[ Parent ]
not helpful after the fact, but.... (0.00 / 0)
Sylvia, I do realize you were writing in support of Gill and I do not mean to dishonor your effort. I'm terribly sorry if I have misinterpreted you in feeling as though you are also offering judgements about the actions of any of us, myself in particular. It felt like you were, but I could be wrong. And I also realize that apologies after the fact are not entirely helpful, that things can still sting anyway. I regret that, as well. Chris
[ Parent ]
more (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

I'm sorry that my offering to Gill contained apparent and/or implicit judgment of things you and John have said to Gill.

Rightly or wrongly (and obviously naively), I assumed that Gill's 8/29 post, which began this new thread, was a new day.  Given that assumption, I was surprised by the vehemence of John's response to Gill.

Yes, I was speaking to Gill, to the feelings she expressed in the post that initiated this thread.

I can't deny that almost everything I say and do reflects judgment, identification, and projection.  I'm hearing from you that my offering was indirectly critical.  I regret that, and I am sorry for that.  Thank you for expressing your feelings and thoughts about this.  I will consider this in my future interactions here and elsewhere.

Sylvia

[ Parent ]
interpretations (0.00 / 0)

Really, Sylvia, it is entirely appropriate for you to interpret the new thread as "a new day." And I gather Gill was intending that on some level. Personally, I still consider John's response completely warranted, as well. And Gill's. And your own, for that matter. 

I am not at all sure that being judgmental or critical is an issue in and of itself. Why shouldn't we offer our observations to others, including criticisms? I was trying to get across that by not directly addressing John in questioning his vehemence, or myself or John in making the choice to try to understand where Gill was in her process and then offering a direction through, that we cannot engage the substance of these issues in any depth.

Of course, you may have made the decision ahead of time that you didn't want to engage those issues in depth, and that is why you did not address anyone directly. I'm sorry I didn't figure that out sooner, or perhaps I wouldn't have said anything at all.

The other point I was making is that although you can make an effort to stay in the mystery, the truth of our experience is not as easy as that. That point I feel you got, though. Thank you.

Take care, Sylvia. My best to you.

Chris

 


[ Parent ]
day-to-day problems (0.00 / 0)
Hi Gill,

I'm glad that you appreciated hearing about my day-to-day problems.  But the reason I don't post about them usually is that, at least for now, they are not where my attention is drawn.  When "negative" things are up, I write about them.  When other things are up and seem more interesting to me personally, then that is what I write about.  For me, it is not really a matter of suppressing the negative, but rather which of the many many levels of my reality seem to draw my attention at any given time.  I tend to be pretty introspective, so often my attention is more drawn to noticing on a pretty deep level -- hence I often end up writing about some new learning or understanding that I have just noticed.

By the way, I will answer to either Susan or Joy.  My family, work colleagues, etc. still all know me as Susan.  But Joy is a name that was given to me by one of my spiritual teachers and I have been using it more and more over the past 76 or 7 years.

Joy

[ Parent ]
More response to Joy (0.00 / 0)
Dear Susan/Joy

I am guilty of not really reading all the posts previously on mutuality.net properly and not reading your posting on food properly - but just reacting to what I perceived as a general feel I've often got from this Forum.  I apologise for this - the feeling may not even have been correct either but something I just perceived in my distress.  Most of this distress is caused by the people around me in my daily life.  My "isolation" has been to be living this 2nd birth in the UK for over 8 years now within a society that doesn't have a clue about what I've been through and how I experience life.  This, I know, is true for many of us (and I'm trying to watch my "victim status" here).

So, sometimes, I just find life too much - and was hoping to find good company in WDM.  That this also didn't happen for me is a big wound; but one I'm trying to heal by participation in this Forum perhaps.

Love, Gill

[ Parent ]
Apology accepted - Thank you! (0.00 / 0)
Gill,

Thank you for your courage and willingness to apologize and for taking the time to write this.

I can certainly related to the feeling of isolation in a society that doesn't have a clue about how you experience life.  I can also relate to how easy it can be to slip over the line into "victim status".  This is actually something I've struggled with a lot in my adult life and fortunately have a bit of relief from it since my 2nd birth, but I still have to watch out for it.  For me personally, that includes even my habit of thinking that other people are causing my negative emotions.

I for one would like to say that your participation is welcome here, your experience of life being too much is welcome here, your wounds are welcome here.  And I hope that you will continue to participate here with all of us as we all continue healing our wounds in mutuality with each other.  I am convinced that true, deep healing can really only happen in mutuality with other human beings.

Blessings,
Joy

[ Parent ]
Thank you (0.00 / 0)
Joy, thank you for sharing your take on these various issues. Each of the things you pointed to and shared were very helpful and important. I personally want to especially thank you for your reminder of what mutuality is. Yes, I think that was my error in the last thread between Gill and I, was that I was too quick to try to point her out rather than just be with what she was sharing. On my own behalf, I will also say that she has been sharing the same point of view for a year, and earlier on in this year I was living it the very same way, and so it seemed time to offer another vantage point. Teachers do that sometimes, friends do that sometimes, it's just part of being human. And I'm not saying this because I felt criticized by your statement on what mutuality is. Not at all. I only offer it as a way to provide context to everyone reading. I caught my own error. Gill clearly wasn't interested in being "helped" in the way I was offering it, and I actually have no problem with that. I just want to be clear that I'm not some big mean person for having done so. Not in this instance. Thanks, Chris
[ Parent ]
A first birth perspective (0.00 / 0)
This entire thread would make me think twice about ever posting my true feelings on anything. I guess I'm confused by all the reactivity and wounding going back and forth. Its disturbing to me.
I felt this was a safe place to speak about personal truth and perspectives without getting judged or slammed. A place I could learn. Well I suppose I am learning.        
[ Parent ]
Not business as usual (0.00 / 0)

The intention has always been for this site to be a safe space for people to express themselves. Over the course of the past few weeks, there's been a difference of opinion over what safety means, which has spilled out into this incident, which is deeply regrettable. At least now, we may be getting to a place where we can work this out and begin the process of restoring peace and trust.


[ Parent ]
I can appreciate the disturbance (0.00 / 0)

Hi Tommy,

I can really appreciate the disturbance you are experiencing. I do understand and feel that same need for safety. I would venture to guess that so does Gill, John, and every one of us here. In Waking Down I think sometimes we push the edges of the envelope in order to get a feel for what is "in bounds" and what is "out of bounds", especially because the second birth has this tendency to sometimes blow away all the rules, and then they kind of have to be re-built individually inside the person, rule by rule, from the ground up, testing each one to see which fits and which doesn't and why. It's part of the "freedom" thing.

We become free to screw up terribly. 

It's sort of like "Oh yeah! Now I understand/remember why we don't do that!"

In this case, we are building the rules around a Waking Down computerized discussion forum. We don't want to do it exactly like everyone else, because we don't want to err on the side of "social etiquette" to the point that the truth of our experience gets lost. But we do need to balance out for safety, as you are pointing out.

Believe it or not, this thread has been terribly disturbing for me, as well, so I really can appreciate where you are coming from. And, I must admit, I am also going to have second thoughts about posting on the forum for awhile. But, we each move closer to others and then away as we need to. Just as we experience interior expansions and contractions, we also experience them exteriorly. Even if I leave for awhile, I'll probably be back and try again later.

Another aspect of this is that the Second Birth seems to take down our ego defenses, and has our woundedness reach the surface much more easily. We often live old stuff out as if it is happening now. So we mistakenly project these old wounds onto those around us. Unfortunately, that includes each other sometimes. And we can project onto the Waking Down teachers, as well. We try not to, but it happens for some of us (i.e., me) far more often than we'd like. And so we practice "coconut yoga"-- we learn to apologize to one another for our errors. It's a very big part of mutuality, I think. At least it has been for me, I am sad to say.

I am also deeply appreciating that Michael is allowing this exploration of the edges of what is permissible. It is not an easy job, the one he has, but I honor him for how he has done it. Please know that he has provided needed protection on this forum at other times. He is allowing this now because the players involved here have asked for a wider berth.

With all of this said, I do hope that you are not truly discouraged enough by what you see here not to speak your truth. I think if you continue to follow what happens here you will find that we will come back again to balance, and a sense of safety will prevail. I trust all of us, especially under Michael's able stewardship, to see to that.

With Love to You,

Chris


[ Parent ]
Sharing vs helping (0.00 / 0)
Hi Chris,

Thanks for your response and especially for describing what you found helpful in my post.  As I wrote it, I felt I was responding to Gill, as well as to you and John and some of the other stronger responses to Gill. I wanted to say to all of you "Hey, you don't have to like or agree with what someone else is saying - just listen to them."  So I figured the best way to do that was probably to model it as much as I could.

I also want to comment on one of your other comments that I read tonight (but don't feel like searching for it now) about your style of communication sometimes being perceived as narcicisstic.  I can really relate to that, having learned a certain style from my involvement years ago in "Living in Process".  I also find that approach to be helpful for me when I want to respond to someone without trying to fix them or help them (when they haven't asked for help).  I think of it as a way to say 'yes I've heard you and I can relate to what you've said and here is how it resonates with my experience'.  But some people do perceive that as ignoring what they've just said and instead talking about myself.  I don't believe that means the communication style is bad, just that perhaps it is not the right style to use with everyone.  And sometimes we can't tell that until we try it out and someone reacts to us.

Anyway, I appreciate all that you've written on this thread -- and also appreciate the way you've been so forthcoming in your latest comments about noticing your own errors or misinterpretations or overreactions.  That is good role modeling for all of us!

Blessings,
Joy

[ Parent ]
very kind (0.00 / 0)

This is very kind of you, Joy, thank you. I figured out what you've illuminated here-- that the style was not well received by Gill, but it had been by John and he got what I was saying, so it wasn't necessary for me to apologize for my style, just to change it if I was ever to offer an alternative view to Gill again in the future. And your observation is true, that I couldn't really learn that until the exchange actually happened, so it appears to be in line with your experience, as well.

With that said, I completely overtook this thread with my narcissistic wound thrashing in the past couple of days. It is no wonder that Gill would misinterpret my more healthy and appropriate response as more self-absorbed self-talk. When I feel hurt, I just do this way too much.

I am integrating but it is slow going. And yet, despite the fact that this is an integration process, when I shift into my settled state now, it is like I am a completely different person because I am so incredibly unfazed by everything, so at peace. I am terribly sad that this brokenness is just so... broken.  I think this is why it has been so slow-going. It is challenging to accept these parts of myself that are so self-absorbed and can be so hurtful to others. Others cannot accept them, but I still have to. Not an easy task. But I can keep trying. It's not like I have a choice.

Thank you so much for your compassionate response. You've expressed both acknowledgement and acceptance and I deeply appreciate it. Thank you.

Chris


[ Parent ]
on food (0.00 / 0)
If I may, Joy, I think the most important thing I wanted to say to you about what you wrote here is that I also didn't interpret your piece on food as either positive or negative. It seemed a very intimate and deep view. I appreciated your sharing it very much. Chris
[ Parent ]
one final comment (0.00 / 0)

I just want to say that I am aware of the errors I have made in thinking any of this was about me. Even when it was, it wasn't. And it is sad and ironic, Gill, that you felt the need to jump off your own thread in order to be seen again.

Oh well. More learning....


The woundedness of being "negative" about life | 71 comments

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